Well, as I said, I, like so many others, note that the Gaza Health Ministry is in a position to count bodies. No one else is and certainly not the IDF. That, plus the fact that U.S. intelligence says they're undercounting due to many bodies still being hidden in the rubble, constitute convincing evidence to me. If someone can do better, I look forward to reading their work. So far no one has.
Robert, I'm shocked, simply shocked. To parrot Hamas propaganda as you both do explicitly and through the links you share is misguided at best.
To claim that Israel has killed the greatest number of civilians in modern history should raise everyone's eyebrows immediately, not encourage them to repeat that nonsense as fact. 20, 000 women, children, men and combatants are the most killed in any war? There are credible sources which say 10 times that many were killed in a single attack at Hiroshima, INTENTIONALY! An equal number r far greater in the bombing of Dresden, intentionally! Look at the 20,000,000 (20 MILION), Soviet deaths alone in WWII.
Nonsense that you're parroting, and the conclusions drawn from that nonsense are like the computer programs of early computing, where it was frequent to call the output garbage because that was what was into the calculation as well.
Robert, you're an intelligent man, but your comment doesn't reflect it. One of the reasons I linked to the sites I did is that they're quoting Israeli sources. You're free to disbelieve Israeli sources if you choose, but if you do, where do you get your information? And your statement that I "claim that Israel has killed the greatest number of civilians in modern history" is simply untrue. I nowhere said any such thing. Feel free to criticize what I write (that's what comments are for), but please confine your criticism to what I do write.
I may have missed the Israeli government statistic of how many civilians were killed in Gaza. If so, I'll offer a qualified apology, a full apology if that Israeli government source refers to only civilian deaths. However, I still can't find it and would ask you to link directly here.
You objected to my statement that it's utter bunk to say that Israel has killed the greatest number of civilians in modern history. (For clarity, I'm referring to a section within the first 2 to 3 minutes of your second link ).First of all, it's not bunk, second of all, I didn't attribute it to you, but to the links that you sent. Support for the position that you're taking. In any event, I would have expected you to say you denounce the portions that are incorrect within the links. You did know such thing.
" One of the reasons I linked to the sites I did is that they're quoting Israeli sources." Where are they? I have no credible sources to rely on. Simply saying that Hamas gave out a number is a curious way of accepting accurate figures. After all, that source has never acknowledged a single death of a terrorist but has claimed 500 deaths in a hospital where they sent a rocket and subsequent verified information showed no deaths at all. People make mistakes. This stat has never been corrected and is still part of whatever number they currently make up.
When Israel makes claims that have yet to be proven wrong, that they aim to reduce civilian deaths, give explicit ways they accomplish that, have statistics showing the number of bombs hitting populations as dense as Gaza in any other war, even where the civilian population is complicit in the illegal taking of hostages or hiding of terrorists, have always far outstripped the death toll in Gaza, it's astonishing that they are labelled as targeting civilians.
BTW, even the US has not attributed any deaths in Gaza to terrorists, but according to them, only civilians have been killed.
What also strikes me as curious is the complete lack of any calls for the release of hostages (civilians and soldiers), men, women and children. There is a complete lack of calls for accountability of Hamas leadership in the Oct 7 murders, the current murder of civilians in Gaza, the stealing of humanitarian aid sent to civilians, and, of course, the extra-judicial murder of everyone who is gay or worked with Israel. Amazing!
I quoted the Israeli sources. Are you saying they didn't say what they're quoted as saying? As to the number of dead, U.S. intelligence - not exactly Israel's enemy - said they're undercounted. Again, where do you get your figures which of course you've never quoted? I understand you don't like the 21,000 figure because it makes Israel look bad, but you need to offer some believable alternative.
Again, please repost the Israeli death toll source you used. I don't see it.
Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC), is a research institute affiliated with the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). According to the ITIC, the total number of Palestinians killed in Gaza from October 7 to December 29, 2023, is 9,621, of whom 6,821 (70.9%) are terrorist operatives and 2,800 (29.1%) are non-involved civilians.
These are estimates and are subject to revision. However, they have more credibility than the Hamas terrorist source.
Robert, I too was surprised you are quoting Hamas figures. Not sure if you can access this sensible article on the data war in relation to mortality figures. https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/israelhamas-locked-in-data-war-over-true-mortality-figures/news-story/3cbdcc1dd1cd0684ea5a580c595edb85
Well, as I said, I, like so many others, note that the Gaza Health Ministry is in a position to count bodies. No one else is and certainly not the IDF. That, plus the fact that U.S. intelligence says they're undercounting due to many bodies still being hidden in the rubble, constitute convincing evidence to me. If someone can do better, I look forward to reading their work. So far no one has.
Robert, I'm shocked, simply shocked. To parrot Hamas propaganda as you both do explicitly and through the links you share is misguided at best.
To claim that Israel has killed the greatest number of civilians in modern history should raise everyone's eyebrows immediately, not encourage them to repeat that nonsense as fact. 20, 000 women, children, men and combatants are the most killed in any war? There are credible sources which say 10 times that many were killed in a single attack at Hiroshima, INTENTIONALY! An equal number r far greater in the bombing of Dresden, intentionally! Look at the 20,000,000 (20 MILION), Soviet deaths alone in WWII.
Nonsense that you're parroting, and the conclusions drawn from that nonsense are like the computer programs of early computing, where it was frequent to call the output garbage because that was what was into the calculation as well.
Robert, you're an intelligent man, but your comment doesn't reflect it. One of the reasons I linked to the sites I did is that they're quoting Israeli sources. You're free to disbelieve Israeli sources if you choose, but if you do, where do you get your information? And your statement that I "claim that Israel has killed the greatest number of civilians in modern history" is simply untrue. I nowhere said any such thing. Feel free to criticize what I write (that's what comments are for), but please confine your criticism to what I do write.
I may have missed the Israeli government statistic of how many civilians were killed in Gaza. If so, I'll offer a qualified apology, a full apology if that Israeli government source refers to only civilian deaths. However, I still can't find it and would ask you to link directly here.
You objected to my statement that it's utter bunk to say that Israel has killed the greatest number of civilians in modern history. (For clarity, I'm referring to a section within the first 2 to 3 minutes of your second link ).First of all, it's not bunk, second of all, I didn't attribute it to you, but to the links that you sent. Support for the position that you're taking. In any event, I would have expected you to say you denounce the portions that are incorrect within the links. You did know such thing.
That statistic is corroborated by U.S. intelligence and multiple independent sources. But you don't believe them, so where do you get your figures?
" One of the reasons I linked to the sites I did is that they're quoting Israeli sources." Where are they? I have no credible sources to rely on. Simply saying that Hamas gave out a number is a curious way of accepting accurate figures. After all, that source has never acknowledged a single death of a terrorist but has claimed 500 deaths in a hospital where they sent a rocket and subsequent verified information showed no deaths at all. People make mistakes. This stat has never been corrected and is still part of whatever number they currently make up.
When Israel makes claims that have yet to be proven wrong, that they aim to reduce civilian deaths, give explicit ways they accomplish that, have statistics showing the number of bombs hitting populations as dense as Gaza in any other war, even where the civilian population is complicit in the illegal taking of hostages or hiding of terrorists, have always far outstripped the death toll in Gaza, it's astonishing that they are labelled as targeting civilians.
BTW, even the US has not attributed any deaths in Gaza to terrorists, but according to them, only civilians have been killed.
What also strikes me as curious is the complete lack of any calls for the release of hostages (civilians and soldiers), men, women and children. There is a complete lack of calls for accountability of Hamas leadership in the Oct 7 murders, the current murder of civilians in Gaza, the stealing of humanitarian aid sent to civilians, and, of course, the extra-judicial murder of everyone who is gay or worked with Israel. Amazing!
I quoted the Israeli sources. Are you saying they didn't say what they're quoted as saying? As to the number of dead, U.S. intelligence - not exactly Israel's enemy - said they're undercounted. Again, where do you get your figures which of course you've never quoted? I understand you don't like the 21,000 figure because it makes Israel look bad, but you need to offer some believable alternative.
Again, please repost the Israeli death toll source you used. I don't see it.
Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC), is a research institute affiliated with the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). According to the ITIC, the total number of Palestinians killed in Gaza from October 7 to December 29, 2023, is 9,621, of whom 6,821 (70.9%) are terrorist operatives and 2,800 (29.1%) are non-involved civilians.
These are estimates and are subject to revision. However, they have more credibility than the Hamas terrorist source.